We are still losing 200,000 manufacturing jobs every year.

[MarvinTPA]

Anyone else bothered by this?

[Tattie]

Anyone else bothered by this?

It's sad but inevitable, unless you can suggest products that we could manufacture and sell on the world market?

[MarvinTPA]

It's sad but inevitable, unless you can suggest products that we could manufacture and sell on the world market?

It is not sad or inevitable at all. You are just being stupid. Every other country in the world increases manufacturing output year on year. Germany, for instance, is the No 1 manufacturing exporter on the planet.

It must be quite a shock to be told the truth, eh?

[MarvinTPA]

There is a saying for people such as you – it is called google-stupid.

Basically, the dim-witted in our society cannot fathom the basic process of information retrieval.

Simple as now it has become, some people are too simple to work out how to do it.

Obviously, a new moniker could be “Tattie-stupid”.

Eff me....

 

[Libertarian]

It is not sad or inevitable at all. You are just being stupid. Every other country in the world increases manufacturing output year on year. Germany, for instance, is the No 1 manufacturing exporter on the planet. It must be quite a shock to be told the truth, eh?

Of all the possible types of economic activity, why is it that manufacturing is somehow better and more beneficial than any other? I've never understood this assertion. Is there anything to back it up?

As it happens Germany has been hit way way harder than us by this recession because nobody is buying the goods they make. Somewhat surprisingly, considering our economy is skewed towards financial services, the UK (in terms of GDP reduction) seems to be about average among EU countries. And while the financial industry is already bouncing back strongly with some major banks already announcing good results, car sales for example are recovering much more slowly.

I'm not applauding the demise of manufacturing in the UK but I don't think we need to mourn it particularly in the long run. The UK led the world into the industrial revolution and it doesn't seem to be harming us in terms of unemployment and GDP growth that we are leading the world out of it. We've found something else to do - and I for one would prefer to be an accountant than a ship-builder.

[MarvinTPA]

Of all the possible types of economic activity, why is it that manufacturing is somehow better and more beneficial than any other? I've never understood this assertion. Is there anything to back it up?

Listen, stupid, manufacturing accounts for 15% of our economy yet generates 50% by value of our exports.

Basically, our manufacturing decline is THE reason we have the highest poverty rate in the western world, the lowest living standards, the highest pensioner poverty rate etc...

Just grow up and wake up.

[Rogerm]

Of all the possible types of economic activity, why is it that manufacturing is somehow better and more beneficial than any other? I've never understood this assertion. Is there anything to back it up?

As it happens Germany has been hit way way harder than us by this recession because nobody is buying the goods they make. Somewhat surprisingly, considering our economy is skewed towards financial services, the UK (in terms of GDP reduction) seems to be about average among EU countries. And while the financial industry is already bouncing back strongly with some major banks already announcing good results, car sales for example are recovering much more slowly.

I'm not applauding the demise of manufacturing in the UK but I don't think we need to mourn it particularly in the long run. The UK led the world into the industrial revolution and it doesn't seem to be harming us in terms of unemployment and GDP growth that we are leading the world out of it. We've found something else to do - and I for one would prefer to be an accountant than a ship-builder.

You may prefer to be an accountant rather then an engineer. But you will still need the engineer when you can't fix something through moving a few figures about a page.

[Libertarian]

You may prefer to be an accountant rather then an engineer. But you will still need the engineer when you can't fix something through moving a few figures about a page.

And the problem is... ? There are people locally who can fix my car even though it was manufactured in another country.

[Libertarian]

Listen, stupid, manufacturing accounts for 15% of our economy yet generates 50% by value of our exports.

It is true that manufactured goods can be exported whereas a lot of service industry things can't. But as long as imports and exports are kept broadly in balance in the long run it doesn't matter whether foreign currency is earned by selling widgets, providing financial services, tourism or whatever. As long as funds are coming in to pay for our foreign cars, iPods, watches, food what does it matter how those funds were generated? Why is a pound earned from the sale of a widget better than a pound earned from transferring money from one bank account to another?

Basically, our manufacturing decline is THE reason we have the highest poverty rate in the western world, the lowest living standards, the highest pensioner poverty rate etc...

No it isn't. The reason we have "the highest poverty rate in the western world, the lowest living standards, the highest pensioner poverty rate etc" is that politically we prefer to sustain a greater disparity in wealth and income than would be palatable in most developed countries. The overall performance of the economy is perfectly decent, it is just that too few people benefit. And this was certainly no different when UK manufacturing led the world - for some unfathomable reason this is how we choose to live.

[El Robbo]

Why is a pound earned from the sale of a widget better than a pound earned from transferring money from one bank account to another?

Because the pound earned in manufacturing is generally a far more labour intensive pound, with various local suppliers and distributors involved.  Just look at how many jobs are threatened when large plants close - often three or four times the number being lost from the plant itself.  The financial sector pound doesn't have nearly as many people and other businesses earning from that pound.  Turning a country into a giant financial service zone without any other real income streams generally only serves the captains of capital and does next to nothing for the wider population other than the public service spending if there's a fair rate of tax on it.

A good example of this is the Cayman Islands, which despite it's small size (pop.  50,000) is the worlds 5th largest banking sector (in other words it's a major tax haven...).  However, around three quarters of it's GDP comes from the tourism industry, so financial services alone don't mean jobs.

[Libertarian]

Because the pound earned in manufacturing is generally a far more labour intensive pound, with various local suppliers and distributors involved.  Just look at how many jobs are threatened when large plants close - often three or four times the number being lost from the plant itself.  The financial sector pound doesn't have nearly as many people and other businesses earning from that pound.

This is often said but is it true? Work in the information/finance sector is perhaps even more inter-linked than manufacturing. Information or finance passes through many people's hands - if 5,000 people are made redundant in a bank then that is going to affect everyone in their supply chain just like a factory closure. And just like a factory or a mine closing all the ancilliary services take a hit - from the cleaners, IT suppliers, recruitment consultants, the sandwich shop, to Spearmint Rhinos and the Lexus dealership.

Turning a country into a giant financial service zone without any other real income streams generally only serves the captains of capital and does next to nothing for the wider population other than the public service spending if there's a fair rate of tax on it.

Income isn't any more "real" because someone got their hands dirty, and the captains of industry have been no more egalitarian with their wealth than the captains of capital.

A good example of this is the Cayman Islands, which despite it's small size (pop.  50,000) is the worlds 5th largest banking sector (in other words it's a major tax haven...).  However, around three quarters of it's GDP comes from the tourism industry, so financial services alone don't mean jobs.

That's a bit of a non sequitur - there are of course millions of service sector jobs in the UK. In the long run, manufacturing jobs have been replaced and are being preplaced by service sector jobs.

It would be be wrong to focus too much on the City and the so-called knowledge ecomony. Most of the jobs that have been lost from manufacturing, mining and heavy industry have been replaced not by hoards of derivatives traders, but by low-status low-paid service sector and clerical jobs of one kind or another. There is I think a lot of "plus ca change" about it.

Anyway the forces that are moving manufacturing jobs first to Japan, Taiwan, then the other Pacific tigers, now China are inexorable. Better to spend our effort adapting rather than resisting. The Far East will take the high volume market, based on economies of scale, low labour costs, poor protection for the labour force and the environment, etc. If there is a space for UK manufacturing it is in specialised niches, high value premium products (like the Germans and their cars) and so on.

[El Robbo]

Income isn't any more "real" because someone got their hands dirty, and the captains of industry have been no more egalitarian with their wealth than the captains of capital.

That's a bit of a non sequitur - there are of course millions of service sector jobs in the UK. In the long run, manufacturing jobs have been replaced and are being preplaced by service sector jobs.

You completely missed my point here - the Cayman islands example absolutely shows that financial services don't bring in much money to the wider economy - they have a huge financial sector but mostly still rely on tourism.

It would be be wrong to focus too much on the City and the so-called knowledge ecomony. Most of the jobs that have been lost from manufacturing, mining and heavy industry have been replaced not by hoards of derivatives traders, but by low-status low-paid service sector and clerical jobs of one kind or another. There is I think a lot of "plus ca change" about it.

That's precisely the problem - the manufacturing related jobs tend to attract a higher income to more people than service sector jobs.  Have a look at what's happened to income distribution over the period of manufacturing losses - there are more extremely high earners and most other people have moved downwards - two thirds now earn below the mean income.  Skim over the graphs in the first 40 or so pages of this doc and you can see what's happened to the different percentiles of earnings, and so see why it's necessary to have a solid manufacturing base

www.ifs.org.uk/comms/comm105.pdf

Anyway the forces that are moving manufacturing jobs first to Japan, Taiwan, then the other Pacific tigers, now China are inexorable. Better to spend our effort adapting rather than resisting. The Far East will take the high volume market, based on economies of scale, low labour costs, poor protection for the labour force and the environment, etc. If there is a space for UK manufacturing it is in specialised niches, high value premium products (like the Germans and their cars) and so on.

Ah yes - adapt rather than resist, and meekly accept the continuation of the race to the bottom 

[MarvinTPA]

It is true that manufactured goods can be exported whereas a lot of service industry things can't. But as long as imports and exports are kept broadly in balance in the long run it doesn't matter whether foreign currency is earned by selling widgets, providing financial services, tourism or whatever. As long as funds are coming in to pay for our foreign cars, iPods, watches, food what does it matter how those funds were generated? Why is a pound earned from the sale of a widget better than a pound earned from transferring money from one bank account to another?

No it isn't. The reason we have "the highest poverty rate in the western world, the lowest living standards, the highest pensioner poverty rate etc" is that politically we prefer to sustain a greater disparity in wealth and income than would be palatable in most developed countries. The overall performance of the economy is perfectly decent, it is just that too few people benefit. And this was certainly no different when UK manufacturing led the world - for some unfathomable reason this is how we choose to live.

What a complete load of shite. Our trade imbalance is well known and not in dispute. Basically, we are suffering two Northern Rock's every year - we are well over £60bn in trade deficit EVERY F**kING year - you stupid t**t.

This is THE reason why OUR country is getting poorer EVERY F**kING DAY.

God you are F**king useless.

Marv.

[MarvinTPA]

You completely missed my point here - the Cayman islands example absolutely shows that financial services don't bring in much money to the wider economy - they have a huge financial sector but mostly still rely on tourism.

That's precisely the problem - the manufacturing related jobs tend to attract a higher income to more people than service sector jobs.  Have a look at what's happened to income distribution over the period of manufacturing losses - there are more extremely high earners and most other people have moved downwards - two thirds now earn below the mean income.  Skim over the graphs in the first 40 or so pages of this doc and you can see what's happened to the different percentiles of earnings, and so see why it's necessary to have a solid manufacturing base

www.ifs.org.uk/comms/comm105.pdf

Ah yes - adapt rather than resist, and meekly accept the continuation of the race to the bottom 

Forget it El Robbo, you will never get through to these people. They belong to the Bin-Laden mind-set of fanatical quasi-religious bullshit. Basically, they are political terrorists.

[Rogerm]

And the problem is... ? There are people locally who can fix my car even though it was manufactured in another country.

No! Our engineering resources are still here. They exist in a number of industries where we are still world leaders in engineering. We have the skills, the capacity and are still competative. What is wrong is that our government over the last 3 decades have allowed the rape of our manufacturing industry. If there were no future in manufacturing, why do France, Germany, japan and the US still do what they can to protect it? These are four of the richest nations in the world, but they don't take a chance on handing the fate of their nations to just a few accountants.

Make no bones about it, we are still a manufacturing country and we are still attracting inward investment. Otherwise why would Nissan, Toyota, Ford, Catterpillar, Honda and countless other engineering firms continue to invest in new plant in the UK? The plants may not employ great numbers, but the supply chain does.

I'll stick with the engineers, because at this moment and during this recession, the actual cull in the services sector has only just begun. My wife works in this sector and the downsizing is just about to start. Her job is about to disappear along with 30% of jobs in here area.  But will it be the same fate for the highly paid risk takers that took us into this recession? No, it will be the front line staff that are paid minimum and just above rates of pay that will result in the differential between the top and bottom earners increasing yet again. I thought that you had a social  conscience, maybe i have been wrong. You seem to advocate a "get richer" society and ignore the working classes. A few benefits will never cure that differential. You ask if i am the Tory, i wonder if you would fit this description more comfortably?

Next year we will see the services sector cull hitting local government where this crew have "manufactured" jobs. We are living in a false paradise where too many are living off the backs of the few that actually produce anything. Your Utopia is starting to fray at seams. You cannot keep producing wealth by fiddling the books. There can be only so much wealth in the world and the accountants cannot just keep on plucking it out of thin air as they have been.